Summary
Gen Z quit drinking. You have read that headline. The numbers say something stranger.
Matt Weiss is the co-host of The Wine Centric Show and a sommelier. He started ordering the wine on family trips at 17, trained through the Court of Master Sommeliers and the American Sommelier Association, worked the floor in New York restaurants, and went on to Wilson Daniels, the importer of Domaine de la Romanée-Conti. Ryan Vet is a sommelier and a wine bar investor himself, which makes this one of the rare episodes where the subject is his own.
They start with the headline everyone repeats: Gen Z quit drinking. Matt's first move is the arithmetic. Gen Z currently spans roughly 14 to 29 years old, so less than half of the generation can legally drink at all. Ryan calls that the Generational Prism: the age someone is, the moment they are living in, and the label we assign them, collapsed into one story.
Then they follow the money. Ryan says the zero-proof category has passed $1 billion, and cites a figure that 93% of non-alcoholic buyers also buy products with alcohol. Matt reads that as moderation, not abstinence: the non-alc glass while cooking, the real one with dinner. He adds the number that rarely gets reported alongside the decline: by his account, alcohol sales fell about $1.2 billion across 2024 into 2025, and THC beverages and gummies picked up almost exactly that much. The drink did not disappear. It changed shape.
The second half is the long arc of American wine. Prohibition, the jug-wine era, Robert Mondavi and terroir, the 1976 Judgment of Paris, Robert Parker's 100-point scale, and a generation of winemakers who refused to be validated by one critic's palate and went back to farming first. Matt calls wine cyclical. It is the same swing Ryan writes about as the Generational Pendulum. It closes practical, with the one habit Matt says will improve anyone's wine drinking more than anything else.
Key takeaways
1
The decline is partly an age artifact. Gen Z spans roughly 14 to 29, so less than half of the generation can legally drink. As Matt puts it, comparing it to a fully adult generation, "it's not apples to apples."
2
The Generational Prism applies. Ryan got his start asking why millennials weren't buying houses, at an age when most of them couldn't. The same mistake is being made about Gen Z and alcohol.
3
Non-alc is moderation, not abstinence. Ryan cites a figure that 93% of non-alcoholic buyers also buy alcohol. Matt describes the pattern: a non-alc glass to start the evening, the real one with food.
4
The quality caught up. Matt points to German producers and LVMH's investment in a super-premium non-alcoholic sparkling house as proof the category is no longer a compromise.
5
The drink changed shape. Matt says alcohol lost about $1.2 billion across 2024 into 2025, and THC beverages and gummies made up almost exactly that amount. "Non-alc and THC are almost rising at the same rate."
6
The mocktail is a social tool. On the menu, it removes the question of why you aren't drinking. Matt calls it "a don't ask, don't tell policy."
7
Loneliness is part of the story. Both point to a generation that socialized at home and through screens for years, which takes away the settings where drinking always happened.
8
Robert Parker changed what wine tasted like. His 100-point scale made wine legible to new American drinkers, and then winemakers started building big, showy wines to win his scores.
9
The next generation went back to place. Winemakers pushed back against single-critic validation and toward farming and terroir. Matt: "even bigger wine companies are focusing on place and farming first before manufacturing and manipulating a wine in the winery."
10
The best small wine often never reaches a shelf. Custom crush producers buy fruit instead of land and sell direct, which lets them skip America's three-tier distribution system entirely.
11
Regions worth your money. Yadkin Valley in North Carolina, Virginia, the Finger Lakes, Mendocino, Lodi, and Washington's Columbia Valley, which Matt says sits right between Old World and New World styles.
12
The one tip: "develop a relationship with a local retailer." A good one isn't trying to upsell you. They're solving a puzzle about your palate.
Terms defined
Plain-language definitions for the ideas in this episode. Structured for search and AI answers.
the Generational Prism noun · Ryan Vet framework
Ryan's lens for separating the age someone is, the moment in history they are living in, and the label assigned to them.
In this episode: Applied to a generation where less than half are old enough to drink.
wine is cyclical phrase · Matt Weiss thesis
Matt's thesis for the whole episode, and the same swing Ryan calls the Generational Pendulum. Prohibition swings to "let's drink," Parker's big wines swing to wines of place, and Matt expects Gen Alpha to swing back toward the classics.
In this episode: The through-line from 8,000 years of wine to the next 10.
moderation, not abstinence phrase · drinking behavior
The reading of the non-alc boom Matt argues for: most buyers are alternating, not quitting, keeping the ceremony of opening a bottle while drinking less alcohol.
In this episode: Why most non-alc buyers still buy alcohol.
terroir noun · wine
In Matt's words, a word that covers the weather, the winemaker's know-how, the health of the plants and the soils.
In this episode: The idea the next generation of winemakers went back to.
Old World and New World noun · wine styles
"New World is focused on fruit and power, old world is more on uh sense of place and earth and the savory components of wine," in Matt's words.
In this episode: Matt puts Washington State squarely between the two.
custom crush noun · winemaking
Making wine without owning a vineyard or a winery: buying fruit from farmers and producing at someone else's facility. Far cheaper than land, especially in Napa.
In this episode: How much of the best small wine in America gets made.
the three-tier system noun · US alcohol distribution
American alcohol distribution runs producer to wholesaler to retailer. Small producers who build a local following sell direct to consumers and skip it.
In this episode: Why the best small wine often never reaches a shelf.
Notable quotes
Lines worth keeping, verbatim from the episode.
ultimately wine is cyclical
even bigger wine companies are focusing on place and farming first before manufacturing and manipulating a wine in the winery.
the main tip I can give anybody if they want to enhance their wine drinking journey is develop a relationship with a local retailer.
And any good wine professional is gonna be like, You like that, try this. And they're not trying to upsell you
the general consensus is that New World is focused on fruit and power
you have the people that are farmers first, winemakers second.
So non-alc and THC are almost rising at the same rate.
So it's a don't ask, don't tell policy.
I don't enjoy most wines. I'll put it that way.
Chapters
Jump to any moment. Timestamps deep-link the audio.
The guest
Matt Weiss
Co-host, The Wine Centric Show · Sommelier
Matt's passion for wine began at 17 during a Clark Griswold-esque family vacation through the Relais & Châteaux of Southern France. It was there he first connected with sommeliers and discovered an affinity for food and wine. After studying history at NYU and training as an actor at the Lee Strasberg Theatre Institute, Matt pursued acting roles in New York City and Los Angeles.
In 2004, Matt worked for Joe Bastianich at his original NYC restaurant, Becco, where he "cut his teeth" in Italian wine and laid the foundation for his career in wine and beverage. He later returned to LA to manage the wine program at Café Del Rey. Matt went on to study at the American Sommelier Association in New York, earning his first of two sommelier certifications. He later completed the certification level through the Court of Master Sommeliers.
With these credentials, he worked for a who's who of Michelin-starred restaurants and acclaimed NYC chefs, including David Bouley, Christopher Lee, and Laurent Tourondel, leading the wine and beverage program at Tourondel's BLT Prime. After more than a decade in restaurants, Matt shifted to wine sales, joining Wilson Daniels, the importer of Domaine de la Romanée-Conti. He also served as an adjunct professor at the ASA. Drawn to North Carolina's rising wine and culinary scene, Matt has established roots in Raleigh with his wife, two boys, and their dog.
Frequently asked
Straight answers to the questions this essay raises. Open by default, structured for search and AI.
Did Gen Z really quit drinking? +
Not in the way the headline suggests. Matt Weiss points out that Gen Z currently spans roughly 14 to 29 years old, so less than half of the generation can legally drink at all, which makes comparisons to fully adult generations misleading. Ryan Vet calls this the Generational Prism: the age someone is, the moment they are living in, and the label assigned to them get collapsed into one story. Weiss also notes that more recent numbers show Gen Z starting to consume more alcoholic drinks again.
Why do most non-alcoholic drink buyers also buy alcohol? +
Because most of them are moderating, not quitting. Ryan Vet cites a figure that 93% of non-alcoholic buyers also buy products with alcohol. Weiss describes the pattern: a non-alcoholic wine while cooking or socializing early in the evening, then a glass or two of regular wine with food. It keeps the ceremony of opening a bottle while cutting the total alcohol.
What is replacing alcohol for young adults? +
Partly THC. Weiss says alcohol sales fell about $1.2 billion across 2024 into 2025, and THC beverages and gummies picked up almost exactly that amount. With THC now legal and regulated in many states and showing up on restaurant menus next to mocktails, wine and cocktails, the social drink has not disappeared. It has changed shape.
How did Robert Parker change American wine? +
His 100-point scale gave new American wine drinkers an easy way to know a wine was good without knowing much about wine. It became so influential that winemakers began chasing his scores, and because critics taste hundreds of wines in a sitting, the showy wines with big alcohol and big fruit stood out. A later generation of winemakers pushed back, rejecting single-critic validation and returning to farming and terroir.
What is custom crush winemaking? +
Making wine without owning a vineyard or a winery. A custom crush producer buys grapes from farmers and makes the wine at a facility someone else owns, which costs far less than buying land, especially in places like Napa Valley. Many of these producers sell directly to their mailing lists and local visitors rather than through America's three-tier system of wholesaler, retailer and consumer, so their wines rarely reach store shelves.
Which US wine regions are worth exploring? +
Weiss points to North Carolina's Yadkin Valley, Virginia, New York's Finger Lakes for dry Riesling, Cabernet Franc and some Pinot Noir, Mendocino and Lodi in California for value, and Washington State's Columbia Valley, which he says sits stylistically between the fruit and power of New World wine and the earthy, savory sense of place of Old World wine.
What is the best way to get better at choosing wine? +
Develop a relationship with a local retailer. Weiss says a knowledgeable shop owner who knows what you already like will point you to what to try next, and a good wine professional is not trying to upsell you. They are trying to solve the puzzle of your palate.
Resources mentioned
Books
Cover
The New California
Cover
Windows on the World Complete Wine Course
Cover
Wine Folly
Cover
Judgment of Paris
Also mentioned
Transcript
00:00 Cold open
Ryan Vet · On this episode of the Ryan Vet Show. I don't enjoy most wines. I'll put it that way. 93% of non-alcoholic buyers also buy products with alcohol.
Matt Weiss · Gen Z is 14 years old to 29 years old. Less than half of them can't even drink alcohol. The soldiers got a ration of one liter of wine per day. And in times of war, two liters per day is gonna surpass a billion dollars this year. And any good wine professional is gonna be like, you like that? Try this. And here's the irony about the wine business. I feel like I've made it.
00:35 Two wine people and a cup of coffee
Ryan Vet · The Ryan Vet Show. Welcome to another episode of the Ryan Vet Show. I'm so excited to have with me my friend Matthew Weiss. He is the co-host of The Wine Centric Show and a sommelier. I don't get to talk about uh one of my passions very often on this show, but I I do today, and we get to talk about wine, and neither one of us has a glass of wine in front of us. I've got my coffee, but that's all right. We get to talk about wine. Matt, welcome to the show.
Matt Weiss · It's great to be on the Ryan Vet Show, man. I feel like I've made it.
Ryan Vet · Well, hey, I appreciate that. And I appreciate all you've done over the years. We we met each other in the wine world, actually. Uh one of my investments over time has been uh wine bars and coffee shops. Uh, we're not getting into the commentary on whether or not that's a good investment on this show. Uh, that's for another time. But what we are talking about is really how has the perception of alcohol evolved over the generations? Because that's a hot button topic, and we're seeing new industries emerge, like the zero-proof niche, which is now over a billion dollars as of last year. So we're we're seeing this growing and evolving shift. And I want to get your perspective, but before we dive into the numbers and the stats and why we think uh the industry is the way it is, I want to hear your story uh and your journey as a sommelier and uh your show and everything else. Thanks.
01:47 Matt's story: France at 17, Los Angeles, New York, and Wilson Daniels
Matt Weiss · I love having the platform, and I feel like on The Wine Centric Show, I'm always uh talking about the guests. So yeah, uh thanks for the platform to do that. And yeah, we did meet in the wine business. And uh I miss you, man, in the wine business, you know. Uh we we we need to have a glass of wine one of these days and uh chat about chat about what you're drinking. But um, yeah, so first The Wine Centric Show. I'll start from the present day and work backwards. We talked to the literal titans of the wine industry, you know, from uh Eric Asimov, the wine critic of the New York Times, to Peter Liem, who is literally the oracle of champagne, the most knowledgeable person on champagne that you will ever meet, guaranteed, to other winemakers like Paul Hobbs and Raj Parr. These are, if you're in the wine business, just like icons. So that kind of level, we release a show every other week, and uh you can find it on all the socials at Wine Centric Show. Um, I started out, my dad uh used to drink a little bit of wine, Folonari Soave, out of Magnum, uh 1.5 liters, if people can remember that. But um, and real quick, we used to uh we my dad really loved to travel. He would take the whole family and we would go through Europe, you know, in the summers or out west. And at some point, now these are like real uh I'm very fortunate to have these problems, but my dad was like, I don't want to order the wine anymore. Matt, you order the wine. And we were 17, I was 17 years old. We were staying at this nice uh resort in France, and I started talking with the sommelier, and who knows why our brains can re you know have their attention for certain information or not. However, I was it made sense to me, and I started like retaining some of the information and and and having these conversations with the sommelier, various sommeliers across our travels, and I was always like somewhat of I knew something about wine. Very little, but I knew something at the time. Uh, I went out to L LA in my 20s and was an actor or was trying to be an actor. I got paid a little bit of money to be in some things, but uh don't look up my IMDb, you won't find much. But anyway, um eventually they always tell you in acting, if you can uh find yourself happy doing something else, do it. And I really caught the wine bug and I moved back to New York and got my uh certified level sommelier uh through the Court of Master Sommeliers, and I also went to the American Sommelier Association, which I ended up being an adjunct professor for as well. And so um I cut my teeth there and worked in some of the best restaurants in New York City to eventually going on the sales side, and I worked for Wilson Daniels, which is the importer for Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, the most sought-after wine, the most expensive, the most hallowed grounds of wine in the world. Uh, to at one point, I was the point of contact in New York City for Aubert de Villaine, which is like the holy grail of wine. He is the he was the proprietor at the time of Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, and we used to share cab rides together, which was pretty awesome.
Ryan Vet · Wow. Wow. Did you have cab in the cab rides? I just had to ask.
Matt Weiss · Uh you know, that would have I should have thought of that then, but that would have been yeah, because he did make some cab at the Hyde Vineyard with his uh like brother-in-law in California. So, you know, if I ever get that opportunity again, there you go.
05:12 Did Gen Z stop drinking? Morality, health, and family
Ryan Vet · There you go. There's the opportunity. Well, I love your story, and I love your journey um to LA, to New York, uh, and and then now North Carolina, and just uh the evolution of your own education in wine, starting with family. And I I think what's so interesting about your story is uh multiple points. You just talked about your own experience with your father, the the cross-cultural nature of wine. Wine is a drink that has been around for for centuries um in ancient texts and everything else. It is a unifying drink, if you will, and sometimes divisive, but we're not gonna get into that. Uh, that's for another episode. Um but we we have all of these uh this history with wine, and then you just talked about some legends that uh the average listener on the show might not know. Uh maybe some of the the wine connoisseurs will know, but uh there's just this history and this culture around wine, and yet all of a sudden we've seen this pivot from where it became a social and cultural conversation to Gen Z allegedly drinking less, which is one of the questions I get asked so much. And so uh I want to kind of tackle it from two different angles based on your perspective, and we'll get into some numbers and some some stories. But one idea that people have is the religiosity of Gen Z, are they becoming moral? Are they going down this road? That's that's one conversation. So because they're they're more moral, is some people's school of thought, are they drinking less? The other is are they more health conscious and are they just aware in that train of thought and down that line of thinking? Some people go down the hey, they saw their family maybe have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, and is that now why they don't follow it? So, first of all, I would love to hear someone who's sold wine, who's taught wine, uh, and who's drank wine once or twice. Could you give a little bit uh of your perspective on the evolving landscape here uh in wine and what we're seeing with some of the younger generations and sales trends?
06:56 8,000 years of wine, and the age problem in the data
Matt Weiss · Yeah, Ryan, you outlined so many of the causes. Uh and there's, of course, as you know, and and by the way, you wrote this great article in July of last year of 2025 that really outlines a lot of these things. I encourage people to read it, maybe even read it before pause the episode now, go read the article and then come back, and then it'll fill in the color a lot of our conversation. But uh there are a couple of things at play. As you said, the and and I'm speaking from a very wine-centric, uh pun intended perspective, right? I I work in the wine business, I work in wine media, I I I my day job is in wine, so I'm not so much talking about spirits, although I can talk pretty expertly about that as well. But as you said, wine has been around for almost 8,000 years, you know. The predates the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, all of these, all of these cultures were figuring out ways. Um well, the Egyptians made beer, okay? And so there was always this social thing around alcohol and it helped people. And we could talk about, you know, when uh Caesar led the Roman Empire, the soldiers got a ration of one liter of wine per day. And when in times of war, they got a ration of two liters per day because Caesar and the the conscious norm was, oh, well, wine will help heal you and uh fortify you in battle. So we have this history of wine, and to a long way of answering is I think there's many causes, is multi-causal, but uh ultimately wine is cyclical and and and and and the ups and downs, and we can and and we're gonna outline those over the course of our conversation between the boomer generation, between Gen X and Gen Z, and the differences, but also, Ryan, you just think about the fact that Gen Z is 14 years old to 29 years old, and why they make up, I think the 21% of the population, I think they're the largest part of the population right now. Uh almost half of those, more than half of them, no, less than half of them can't even drink alcohol. So it's not really like it's oh it's not apples to apples when you look at it in in a in you know a 360-degree view.
09:09 The Generational Prism
Ryan Vet · Yeah, I think you hit on one of the the biggest things right there, and I talk about this a lot in my writing. It's what I call the generational prism. It's the age that someone is, the moment in history that we're living in, and then you have to assign the label. It's how I got my start talking about millennials was why aren't they buying houses? Same thing. They were about this age. They were, I think, about 12 to 25 at the time. There was a lot a lot of reason they weren't buying houses at at that age. So I think uh looking at it through that lens is is super, super important. Um, and and as you talked about, there's there's this history, but there's also something else that's happening on the other side of this industry. So while while we're seeing a decline in in Gen Z drinking, and part of it's because you know, half of the demographic's not even old enough to drink yet legally. Uh we're also seeing a shift in the growing non-alk or zero-proof. There, you know, there's several different labels for it. Could you talk a little bit about that?
09:59 The zero-proof boom
Matt Weiss · Yes. And that is certainly a thing. Uh the the non-alk category, we talked about this off-air, it's going to surpass a billion dollars this year. A couple things about that. Yes, we know more. We have a wellness movement. We're coming out of a COVID spike in alcoholic drinking and consumption where the pendulum has now swung back and to realize I was drinking too much or my partner was drinking, whatever it may be, to think, okay, wellness. And I don't think, and and the numbers bear this out that it's just, oh, I'm not drinking alcohol, period. Some some have chosen that, and that's why it's hard. This is a we're we're looking at it from a generational perspective. Now, there are certainly some that said, I'm just not drinking alcohol, so I'll I'll I'll favor the non-alcohol. But but what I think is really due is a result of the increase in the non-alcoholic production and sales is people trying to moderate and saying, Well, you know, I like to have uh a couple of glasses of wine. I notice that makes me really tipsy. I'm gonna start um while we're just socializing or while while I'm cooking and chopping vegetables, instead of having, you know, a glass of Chardonnay, I'm gonna have a glass of non-alcoholic Riesling or a non-alcohol or a non-alcoholic sparkling wine. So I think it's just a way of kind of uh circumventing drinking all the alcohol, but not eschewing alcohol completely. And the last part about that I'll say is the production of it has really elevated. They're making a lot better non-alcoholic wines. You know, you can cite um obviously all the German producers that now make really good non-alcoholic wines, but also LVMH uh they mo the company that is responsible for Moët Hennessy has now invested a lot of money in a non in a sparkling wine non-alcoholic house to make super premium non-alc sparkling wine.
12:00 Why non-alc buyers still buy alcohol
Ryan Vet · That's really fascinating. I actually just saw the statistic. It says 93% of non-alcoholic buyers, so whether that's wine or uh non-alcoholic spirits, also buy products with alcohol. That's right. So could you talk a little bit more about that? Because that seems counterintuitive. Why would you buy non-alk and buy alk? Yeah.
Matt Weiss · So some of that is for, well, if I'm buying a gift, okay. So if I'm buying in retail, I'm buying a gift. But it's it's exactly what I said, uh, the moder trying to moderate. And if I'm having, oh, you know, like I realize, oh, I'm cooking dinner, I'm having a glass of wine. Maybe I had two. And then well, with dinner, you're you start to salivate, you want more. The food tastes so good with the wine, and and then you'll have you'll and then you've had before you know it, you've had four glasses of wine. You know, at least I can consume that easily, to be, you know, to be honest with you. Um, and it doesn't affect me. But as you start thinking about the wellness and like, oh, I one that's putting a lot of weight on me, I might not sleep as well, all those things. So I'm transitioning, transitioning to still being social, still having the ceremony around opening wine, but I'm buying the non-alk to start my evening with, and then I'll transition with food or later in the evening to have a glass or two of the alcoholic wine.
13:20 Mocktails and the don't-ask-don't-tell drink
Ryan Vet · Yeah, that's really good. And one of the things moving slightly away from mine, but that I've really appreciated with this non-alk movement, thanks to Gen Z or later-born Millennials, is the fact that a lot of these uh restaurants and bars are putting mocktails on their menu. And so especially when I'm traveling, and sometimes you'll have you know two or three or four happy hours a night uh and r uh receptions, that that becomes a lot. But being able to grab one of those drinks, because for me, I I like the art, the artisan part of it. Um, but being able to grab mocktail and supplement that, I think there's both a social, it feels better socially, even though that's you know a personal problem that I need to work through, and I'll talk about that later. But uh, you know, that that's one part of it. But it's also uh an alternative. So you're not necessarily consuming alcohol and getting to the point where you're drinking more than you you have chosen to drink.
Matt Weiss · Exactly. And you also you just don't want to be bothered with the stigma of like, oh, you're not drinking. Why are you not drinking why you're not drinking? Well, you have a mocktail, who cares, right? Nobody's asking or whatever, and you don't have to tell anything. So it's a don't ask, don't tell policy.
14:19 5.2 drinks a week to 3.5, and what's behind it
Ryan Vet · Yeah, there you go. There you go. Well, here's one interesting stat. I'm just throwing stats at you because I find this interesting. Right now, looking at young adults 18 to 34, we're using the generational prism again. So taking a snapshot in time and looking at people at that age and that moment in time, um, if you take the 18 to 34 year olds in 2000, they were drinking about 5.2 drinks a week. But fast forward 20 years and still looking at the current 18 to 34 year olds in the last couple years, they've uh declined 31% and are only drinking about three and a half drinks a week. So there is this decline, and we are seeing that. And we are even seeing in um that alcohol sales are down uh from uh a national standpoint at a significant, significant pace. Why, why do you think Gen Z, what do you think the motivators are truly behind Gen Z? If you were to take your pick in one of the arguments, what do you think it might be?
15:14 Boomer wealth, and THC filling a $1.2 billion gap
Matt Weiss · I I think uh listen, the there's again multi-causes for this, but you're also in the 18 to 34 group, you're then throwing back in millennials into the cause, right? So there's a few other there's a few other things there. Um and over the last years, those numbers have kind of changed. So you're kind of talking about that capsule in time, uh, where it's actually showing that Gen Z is actually starting to consume more alcoholic drinks uh now again. So I I think there's a couple of factors. Again, I'll go back to the age. I'll go back to the fact that if you compare it to the boomer generation, especially back when you started this uh in the in the 2020s, the boomers have over 50% of the wealth in this country. So when you're and then when you add in, oh, I gotta, you know, I don't own my own house, I gotta pay for gas, I gotta pay for whatever, alcohol probably goes out the window, especially if you're in the wellness space. Another thing about that is, uh, and I'll throw a stat back to you, and this is more recent, but they said that one, I think um alcohol alcohol by by um uh premius premiumization by by sheer dollars was down about $1.2 billion over the past year or 24 to 25. Well, and and then nobody in the same sentence, but it's exactly relational that THC beverages and gummies has exactly made up for the $1.2 billion. It's now a $1.2 billion industry. So all those things and the rise of the THC beverage and also the legalization of it in many states is directly affected why Gen Z is not drinking as much alcohol.
Ryan Vet · So let's go down that. Uh, I think that's a really interesting stat. So we're seeing a void in a market, but immediately backfilled, which is normally what happens in economics, is backfilled with something. So we're seeing THC drinks on the rise. Could you talk a little bit about that and the current state of what that looks like uh across the United States right now?
17:15 THC goes legal, regulated, and craft
Matt Weiss · It well, it's another rising industry. So non-alc and THC are almost rising at the same rate. But um I think that this is generational, right? Uh when when you and I grew up, I think surprisingly, you looked much younger than me, but I think we're about the same age. Um I think I got a few years on you, but you have three kids, so that uh that adds more gray hairs to you soon. But but the point being, you know, when we were teenagers, when we were young adults, you almost had to sneak your uh marijuana consumption, and you were you were buying it from who knows from some sort of sketchy thing, right? Uh I had it we had to go to Jamaica Boulevard in Queens to, you know, buy buy our our nickel bags, and then you were s and then you were smoking it, uh, which is awful for you. Now THC is is legal in many states, and even in North Carolina right now, through beverages, uh through a couple of different channels, it's legal. And so just the fact that you can do that, um, it's it's just such a different availability of THC. And it now it's made in a craft way, and it's highly regulated. And socially, it's perfectly acceptable. On restaurant lists, you have THC drinks taking up. So you have mocktails, you have THC, then you have wine and regular cocktails. So all of that is uh is part of the norm now.
Ryan Vet · So what I'm hearing is the socialization around the beverage has not changed at all. It still has been a part of society generationally through seasonality of and cyclic uh the cyclicalness of sales, it's just changing shape. Is that what I'm hearing you say?
18:54 Staying home: loneliness, screens, and socializing
Matt Weiss · I think it's changing shape. I also think, again, that part of that cyclical nature is, and I think this is becoming less uh of a factor, but for a long time, especially coming out of COVID, and you look at professors like uh Scott Galloway, right? The NYU professor uh who talks about how uh uh the Gen Z and people of the all uh some millennials also are just having less sex, which means that like there's be and and you think about all the social media and all the inputs that you can get by sitting on your couch and not going out for I think that's changing now, but for a long time because of all the technology, Gen Z in particular was not going out and partaking in socialization. Uh and and and so I think it's probably and this is no stat based, but it's like less uh stigmatic to sit at home with a THC beverage and watch a movie than to sit at home with an alcohol beverage, and again, less expensive. So I think all those things play a factor in it, and also like you we just we don't have the same socialization because we're so used to meeting somebody virtually or consuming so much socialization through social media rather than actually human-on-human interaction.
Ryan Vet · Yeah, I think you hit a huge part there, and it's the idea that technology has replaced what we feel is filling a need, but it's really creating a bigger void. It's increasing loneliness and it is preventing people from getting out. We're seeing uh more and more, a third of, depending on the stat that you look at it, between a third and three-quarters, a huge range, uh, which means it's not well studied, but uh somewhere in that range, uh uh Gen Z has had a relationship with the chatbot and in lieu of a romantic uh relationship out in public. So that's not happening at bars anymore. That's not happening uh, you know, even at the local wine store. Uh so that I think that's really a significant part of why we're seeing less consumption with with some of these young generations. But the wine industry itself has changed. So let's let's talk about wine for a second and let's just talk about U.S. wine. Uh we don't even have to get into wine not being able to be imported or scares there. Let's stick with US. The US wine world has changed dramatically um really since the last, let's call it since the 70s. So can you kind of paint the picture of where the U.S. wine has been, uh, what's happening now in the last 10 years, and does that have an influence on wine sales?
21:22 Prohibition to Mondavi to Robert Parker
Matt Weiss · 100%. Uh and again, there's so much going into this, right? And you gotta even go back to before the 1970s, to be honest, Ryan, because you got you gotta go all the way back to prohibition. And you think about for almost 14 years in this country, we weren't legally allowed to drink. So not only was it legal, it was based in religion and social stigma and all these things. So the pendulum again swings back, and we get out of prohibition and it's like, ah, let's drink, you know, but then you go into the world wars, etc. Anyway, so let's fast forward to the 1970s. And it's really more in the late 1970s. You do have some properties starting in the 1970s and some vines being planted, but really the production is heavily on sweet wines, bulk juice, sweet wines, you know, jug wines, nothing of premiumization. And then enter Robert Mondavi uh and the Mondavi family and really focusing on place, that magic word in wine called terroir, which is not just about it's it's a it's a word that encompasses uh the weather, the know-how of the winemaker, the the the the healthiness of the plants, the soils. It's all of that when you talk about terroir. Um, and and a focus on that in the 1970s. And so what happened is obviously in 1976 you have the tasting of Paris, which by the way, it was a big deal in where if you were there, but that wasn't a big deal until George Taber wrote the article and wrote the book, and then people started realizing oh, we make good wine in America that can rival the French. And that's what happened in the tasting of Paris is American wines in a blind tasting were judged higher than French tasting, which at that time uh it was nomenclature that French wines were at the absolute top of the wine hierarchy pyramid. That they were they were the best. French people make the best wine. There's no question, that's just it. And that really challenged all the the thinking around that. Um so you have that, you have this starting to make good wine, plant better vines, be intentional about the premiumization of wine. Uh in the late 80s, then you enter Robert Parker. Uh and really he made his bones uh in the early 80s with the 1982 Bordeaux vintage, which he claimed to be the best vintage ever. Um, there's the you you you can uh if you can get your hands on some 1982 first growth Bordeaux, go ahead and see if uh he was right, Mr. Parker was right or not. But anyway, uh culturally, uh it was he was a dynamo. He created the hundred-point scale system where he rated wines. And not only was this a way for Americans who didn't know much about we were a a really um uh a newborn culture in wine. It wasn't necessarily part of it unless we're drinking like sweet wines and stuff like that. Uh, it's a way, think about to wrap easily wrap your head around it. Oh, well, if Mr. Parker says this wine is above 90, I know it's good. I don't have to know anything about wine, but I know that. So everybody was comfortable. And then what happens, he got so popular that people, winemakers, started chasing those scores. And they said, Well, I need Robert Parker to I my validation comes through whether he scores my wine highly, and that created a whole stylization shift to where they were making wines for Robert Parker's palate. Now, think about that for a second because when Robert Parker and most wine people are tasting for for journalist journalistic integrity or journalistic reasons, they're tasting hundreds of wines in a sitting. Think about what wines are gonna stick out in those when you're tasting a hundred wines that you're gonna say, oh, this is this is a 95 to 100, where this is 90 or less than 90. It's the wines that are showy, that have big alcohol, that have big, big fruit. Now, those don't necessarily make the best wines, or that doesn't mean it's everybody's palate. But Robert Parker, you know, tasting of hundreds of wines, those are sticking out for him. So he's giving them big scores. People are making lots of money, the wine business is raising, we have economics raising in this country, and we're starting to learn something about wine. And so we have this boom. Once again, back to my cyclical thing, the pendulum swings back. We have other people start to be influential in wine drinking. You have the likes of Stephen Tanzer, uh, Wine Spectator, Wine Enthusiast, the other critics, uh, James Suckling, that are becoming that are becoming known and important as the wine business is growing. And um, they're not exactly the same as Parker, but they give their own scales. And then what happens is you have a new generation of winemakers that say, I'm not gonna be validated by one man's think opinion of of how my wine tastes. And not only that, but I think um as we have more information and Gen Z certainly chooses their food better, we have more of a respect for for our planet where we don't want things, you know, the less uh transportation we can have, the better, the better it is for our planet, etc. So we start eat eating more locally and focusing on foods that are that are grown locally. Um and that same thing happens on the wine business where it's like we focused before on manufacturing and creating a wine that would please Robert Parker. Now we're becoming more about intentional about the farming of our grapes. Back to that word of terroir. And so the the focus over the last 15 years in a book, there's a great book called The New California, but by Jon Bonné, which really um shows how all of this, the pendulum swung, where winemakers, the next generation, focused on terroir, and they were focused on wines of place, meaning the wine in the bottle wasn't about alcohol and fruit, it was about representing where that wine came from. We get more knowledge, people vote with their dollars and are starting to buy more of that wine. So that's and that's kind of where we're back to now. Um, and I think the pendulum is kind of in a good spot for the wine world right now, as Kevin Zraly said on my show, uh, right, and he's one of the biggest influencers and teachers of wine. He wrote the uh the Windows on the World wine course book, which millions of Americans have read. Yep, great book. And as he said, we are kind of in the golden age of wine because we're so accepting of wines from all over the world, and we have palates where even bigger wine companies are focusing on place and farming first before manufacturing and manipulating a wine in the winery.
28:11 Boomers chased scores, Gen X winemakers rebelled
Ryan Vet · I I love that history. And I as you were talking, it made me think of a couple um just a couple milestones. If you think about generationally, you look at the baby boomers in particular, who would have been the wine drinkers of the 80s uh when all those scores were coming out, and they would have had the the wealth accumulated at that point in time to afford more expensive wine. They often, if you look at that generation and kind of uh generalizing them, they loved uh degrees, they loved uh certifications, they loved titles, they chased the corner off. There were just certain things that were important to them. And it's really interesting that wine scores came around that time. It was the perfect marriage uh because they that's what that generation wanted to was attracted to anyway. So that's one interesting fact. And then you said the next generation was yeah, status. And I had this wine, and you even saw, you know, Hollywood take onto that, and uh Silver Oak did a lot of placements with friends, and there's just a lot of uh intentional branding later on, and and then all of a sudden you said this new generation of winemakers, and that would have likely been Gen X as winemakers, and they were rebellious in nature anyway, um, which I love. And and they push back against uh, you know, they push back against the the cultural stigmas, and I think they probably are the ones who brought in some of the hey, let's give that sense of place again, and all of that. So I I love that that arc. Now, one of the things we saw years ago, almost 15 or 20 years ago now, is the rising craft breweries. That's kind of when it started and then it peaked, and now we're seeing them close down. We didn't see that with wine, but now we're starting to see some of these uh wineries starting to pop up. Obviously, wine it takes a lot longer to cultivate and get grapes uh uh to grow and then into a bottle. Uh so and it's much more expensive than beer. But what do you think uh with some of these smaller wineries popping up? Is that uh a trend? Is that here to stay? What do you think that's going to be like here in the United States in particular?
30:04 Custom crush and the price of land
Matt Weiss · That is certainly, I think, here to stay because land is one of the most expensive things to purchase. And you take the Napa Valley, which is the most notable region uh in the United States, at least commercially. Um the the average person be outside of the one percenters cannot afford to buy land in Napa Valley. You can't probably afford you know an apartment. So, but you can still, and here's the irony about the wine business is you can still um purchase fruit from a farmer, make it in what's called a custom crush facility, or make it in somebody else's uh warehouse winery, and it will be much less than if you own the vineyard yourself. And so people who saying, I love wine, I want to learn how to make wine, they're gonna continue to do that and make and and and purchase fruit from farmers, uh, and and I think that's absolutely going to grow.
31:00 Regions to watch
Ryan Vet · Yeah, I've I've had the opportunity to uh judge the North Carolina wine competition for for many years now. And like you said a couple minutes ago, Robert Parker, you know, you sit and you're drinking hundreds of wines. I think we do about 220 a day. So it's a it's a lot of wine, and you have a panel of judges, so it's not just one panel, and um they've been really good at pairing people with different palates to make sure that you know that it's a diverse opinion. Um but a lot of these wineries are popping up in states like North Carolina wine. North Carolina wine often has been underrated, and we're we're a developing region for sure. We're figuring out what we can grow and what we can't grow and what our own uh you know sense of place is. But what are some of these other growing regions in the United States right now that no one talks about? They're not the Napa or the Willamette. Uh, what are some of those places that you think people should keep an eye out for or maybe check out?
Matt Weiss · Yeah, uh, I do think that there's some really good wines coming out of uh North Carolina and Yadkin Valley where a price-to-ratio value is not kind of where we want it to be at this point, but that's certainly a burgeoning region. Then just go a little bit north in Virginia. There's a lot of good wines being made in Virginia. Um, and then the other thing is uh staying on the East Coast for a second in the Finger Lakes, there's some unbelievable dry Rieslings, Cabernet Franc being made there, and even some Pinot Noir as the climate warms. So look for New York State wines. And then even still in California, there's so many wineries that as you get out of Napa and Sonoma, like if you go up to Mendocino or you go inland to Lodi, uh, we're getting some really great wines, great value. And then the other thing, and you know, in my day job, we do a lot of this, but Washington State is crazy. Like, we know it. The Columbia Valley has been making wines for hundreds of years, yet we still don't consume it unless it was like some bulk. And Chateau Ste. Michelle changed the the game for them, but like that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the family-owned wineries and estates that are coming through out of Columbia Valley for the most part, is making excellent wine of all styles. And the cool thing is, I always say this uh stylistically, it is perfectly in the center of what we call old old world, mostly Europe, and new world winemaking. And just to define that real quick, the general consensus is that New World is focused on fruit and power, old world is more on uh sense of place and earth and the savory components of wine. And Washington State falls beautifully in the middle of that, is the beautiful middle bridge and center point to that.
33:35 Marketers, Michigan, and farmers first
Ryan Vet · That's that's really cool. And I think we do get so wrapped up in the label, and that's what these marketers do. I mean, most American wine companies in particular are marketing companies. That's what they they're great at. They're great at making sure you buy the label, um, pricing it right for whatever they're selling you. Um, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's uh, you know, we're a consumeristic society. It has its pros and cons. Um, you know, I was speaking out in Traverse City, Michigan not too long ago, and they have great wines. I went to a local winery there and totally knocked my socks off. And I, you know, I'll drink and try most wines. I I don't enjoy most wines, I'll put it that way. Um, you know, you've tried to sell to me for for I'm pretty blunt when it comes to that. So um, but you were about to say something.
Matt Weiss · Uh I was just gonna well, first of all, yes, Michigan does have we don't get a lot of Michigan wines. I remember when I was back in New York City, there was a sommelier uh from Michigan, and he was really pushing it forward, and the wines were very good. It's similar somewhat climactically to what you have in New York State. Um I forget what the point I was gonna make. So Yeah.
34:35 The next 10 years of wine
Ryan Vet · Well, sorry, sorry to interrupt, but yeah, I think uh I think the the wine world as we've talked about it is changing, it's um moving and it's evolving. What do you see the the future of wine being? I know we we went on a kick with uh skin contact wines or orange wines for a while, but what do you see if you could predict in the next 10 years uh as Gen Z uh you know all becomes of drinking age and we start to see Gen Alpha peeking into drinking age in the next seven years or so? What do you see the future of wine looking like?
Matt Weiss · I'm gonna answer that in one second, but I remembered what I was gonna say.
Ryan Vet · So go for it.
Matt Weiss · Uh what I was gonna say previously was I think that um the marketing people are great as long as on the ground you have the people that are farmers first, winemakers second. So they're they're growing, you know, wine comes from grapes. So you start with a wonderful growing of beautiful grapes, you have a much better chance to make great wine. And then for sure, hand it off to the marketing people. Let them let them go sell our passion. 100% support that. So I just wanted to put that in there. So let's focus on that. And then to answer your question is what is the future of wine? Uh Ryan, it's interesting. When I moved from New York City to Cal to North Carolina, there was such a focus on anything different. And it was so much, it was almost comical because uh what was classic, like let's just take it was classic in New York City and old school to drink Bordeaux. Yeah. Bordeaux was known, as I said, Robert Parker class or raided the region, and you have the Napoleon classification of 1855. It was a standard in the industry, but it had almost become so classic that it's new again. Uh so so but but but the people who had newer palates or were newer to wine didn't know Bordeaux existed. So they were like, oh, check out this new thing. It's Bordeaux, you know, it's Cabernet blended with Merlot and Cabernet Franc. Um, I think classics will always be there, Burgundy, Bordeaux, um, as much and and now more so than ever, because in some ways, especially with Burgundy, it's pricing itself out of the market. You're drinking more Loire Valley and other parts of France that were lesser known previously are becoming more. But I do think we have this curiosity, we have this globalization of the world, social media and knowledge, technology, so that we are going and I uh we're gonna be finding other regions that are making wine uh and getting them to us here, at least in the US, and then more focus on them. And I just think um as as the wine and and who knows what uh is it uh Gen Alpha will be into. I have a feeling just from my own perspective that they're gonna go, the pendulum's gonna swing back to the c back heavy to the classics. But in the meantime, until we get there, I think it will be like you asked previously, burgeoning regions. Um, and and this isn't new, it's been coming up for a while, but like I know you were into, and there was somebody locally that was importing Georgian wines and all the Balkan wines and stuff like that. And as we have more access to that, um, I think we'll find more from there.
37:47 Leadership Uncorked and the wine you said you hated
Ryan Vet · Yeah, I think there's some some great wines that are just untapped. And I one of the things I would say to the listeners, uh, you know, people when I ever I speak, and sometimes I do a leadership uh course called Leadership Uncorked. And when I do that, uh I set them up and I won't even tell you the varietals because it'll mess uh, you know, I don't want anyone to know the secret, but I I pick varietals that people generally dislike. Um and I set it up and tell a wonderful story about the winemaker or where it's from without disclosing the varietal. And people love the wine, and I'm like, yeah, you just drank the wine you said you didn't like. And so I would say uh to listeners, you know, be exploratory. If you think you don't like fill-in-the-blank, try it from a different region because there's just this, uh, as Matt said a couple times, terroir, right? There's just this sense of place that so many wines bring to the table that uh you're really missing out if you say, Nope, I only drink I only drink reds, or I, you know, only drink wines from this region. There's just you might not have found the right white wine that you like or the right rose or sparkling, but there's just such a a robust uh world of wine out there. Matt, what what thoughts do you have for someone that needs to to expand their palate?
38:48 The one tip: find a local retailer
Matt Weiss · The number one thing I always tell people, and one day, maybe I don't know, total wine will or be a sponsor of The Wine Centric Show, and I'll have to uh tailor the statement to it. But no, the the the main tip I can give anybody if they want to enhance their wine drinking journey is develop a relationship with a local retailer. Um, because buying your wines at the grocery store, total wine, is a completely different experience. Because if you go in and develop a rapport and have a dialogue with a knowledgeable retailer, you are going to be rewarded so much more in your wine drinking drinking journey. Because if you tell them, oh, this is what I'm drinking now, this is what I like, they're gonna implant that in their mind. And any good wine professional is gonna be like, You like that, try this. And they're not trying to upsell you, they're just genuinely excited about what you might like and what they found that fits your palate because it's kind of like solving a puzzle. Uh, and and and that's what wine professionals do, and it's a lot of fun, and that's rewarding for them as well. Um, and and also you'll you'll and then you'll find new things and you'll be able to explore based on already what you like.
39:58 Santa Barbara, custom crush, and the three-tier system
Ryan Vet · I I want to go back to something you said a little bit ago because it triggered a thought. We talked about custom crush. Um, and I think there's uh you know so many wine makers out there that either can't afford the vineyard or they're dabbling in, and maybe it's a part-time job, but I want to share a story. Um, you know, I my wife and I go to Santa Barbara a lot, and I actually uh had an event in Santa Barbara that I hosted earlier this year, and I had Ashley Parker of Fess Parker Wines. Uh she was uh we did an interview with her, and it's amazing, first of all, to hear their story. They're not Custom Crush. Uh they grow their estate fruit, but it's family-owned, and it truly is, has been for generations family-owned. And in California, that's that's rare, more and more rare, um, which is uh a whole nother conversation. But also the one day we were walking through the funk zone, which is where there's a bunch of wine tasting rooms in in Santa Barbara, right off um, you know, right off the water there. And uh we saw this one that was open with our friends, and we walked in, and you know, the the guy pouring the wine is the guy who's making the wine, custom crush. His name's Lenny, um, and his wine brand is Skyenna. And what I love about that is you have these individuals who are passionate about wine, and for him it was a second career, and he's crafting wine, and he gets the benefit of terroir, not just from one vineyard, but he actually goes up and down North Carolina and buys uh grapes from across or not North Carolina, uh his wines are California, from California and and buys grapes from from different vineyards, gets to know the farmers, and I think there's this uh trend up in custom crush, but a lot of that doesn't see retail. Why not?
Matt Weiss · Because it's uh in this country, first of all, I want to say uh Fess Parker, yes, great winery, and they're right across the street from uh in Los Olivos from um the Los Olivos Cafe, which is one of the best dining experiences. It's it's in the movie Sideways where Miles famously uh sits outside and says, I'm not drinking any effing Merlot, you know, uh that's the place. But and and um just anecdotally, you know, I lived in Los Angeles and for a long time my intention was I need to go and drive up the coast and get to Napa. I'd never been to Napa at that point. And this happened about three times where I would stop in Santa Barbara and I was just having such an amazing time in Santa Barbara wine country that I never made it up to Napa. So it wasn't until years later that I actually went up to Napa. But uh to answer your question, why isn't custom crush in in the United States, and to define custom crush, again, it's people that don't own vineyards and they don't own a winery, and they're making, they're buying fruit, they're buying grapes, and then uh making their wine at a facility of somebody else that somebody else owns. Um and the the reason for that is in America we have the three-tier system. So your wine uh goes to a wholesaler, then the wholesaler sells it to uh has to truck it and sells it to shops, and then finally you get it. Now, there's a lot involved in that. And if you're a good custom crush and you develop a local following, you don't have to deal with any of that, and you can sell your wines directly to the people on your mailing list or locally that come into what did you call it, the funk zone. Um, right yeah, the funk zone right there. And it's it's much easier for business, especially when you're a small business. You don't have to hound a distributor about, hey, uh, why aren't you selling my wines? You know, are you buying more this month? What's the deal? Budgeting, the whole thing, you just sell them directly to consumers.
43:19 What Matt is drinking right now
Ryan Vet · Yeah, I I love that. And I think it's great to find these wine regions in the world. And you know, Napa obviously has uh a lot of custom crush now. Uh and you can find little tasting rooms that where they're not uh estate-grown wines in uh, you know, Santa Barbara, Los Olivos area, uh anywhere up the California coast, you're you're seeing more and more of this trend. And I think it's great because now you get to see local artisans, small business, which uh America's built on, and you get to see some of them uh just with their expression of of the wines that they're experiencing. So I think that's just a fantastic um conversation. Well, uh, Matt, this has been a fun conversation. I always enjoy talking. Uh and uh next time we'll have to do it over a glass of wine. So the the question is, and I know as a wine person, this is the worst question. But the listeners are gonna want to know. What what is uh what are you drinking right now? I'm not gonna say what's your favorite glass of wine. What are you drinking right now? Or what are you gonna open tonight?
Matt Weiss · Um this is going to be you know, I'll I'll I'll answer this in two parts. I'm gonna I'll I'll sit on the fence a little bit. I drink much more white wine than I do red wine in general just for consumption. Red wine typically for me needs to be really strategically paired, whereas white wine can just be sometimes because it's a chilled beverage by nature, sometimes more enjoyable on its own. Not that it doesn't need, but um I talked about the classics. Uh so I often reach for Southern Italian whites, uh that can be Fiano, Vermentino, uh Greco di Tufo, those those type of things. But I get on Chardonnay kicks um often. And right now I'm drinking, it's one, it's one of the wines I represent, but it honestly I'm not biased about it. I'm drinking uh Frédéric Magnien's Coteaux Bourguignons, which is like the lowest level of um uh of classification in Burgundy. So it's white burgundy, which is 99.9% of the time or 99% of the time Chardonnay. Uh, but it's crisp, steely, white tea leaves. It's I talked about it in my newsletter, which if you like what I'm saying, please sign up for the Wine Centric newsletter. That really helps keep the keeps the lights on. Um, but that is something, and it's not expensive. That's like the best I'm enjoying right now, and I'll probably open a bottle tonight.
45:30 Where to find Matt
Ryan Vet · That sounds awesome. I I actually love Chardonnay too. I know Chardonnay has a bad rap, um, but uh Chardonnay is an incredible grape and and when done right, it's just an amazing and special wine. So, well, Matt, uh, you mentioned your newsletter, but but talk a little bit more about it, talk about your show. How can people find out more about you? Uh, find out what you're drinking uh whatever night they decide to tune in and uh follow you.
Matt Weiss · Yep. Uh winecentricshow.com. Follow me on all the socials at Wine Centric Show. If uh we like I said, we release a long form episode with a winemaker or or a wine writer or somebody um that's very influential in the wine business. This week's episode is with uh Madeline Puckette, or the current episode now at Madeline Puckette, who is the creator of Wine Folly. Also another point if you want to join your wine, if you want to enhance your wine journey, get yourself the Wine Folly book or follow them online. Um, but so for all the information about me, um, I will say try to watch the show on YouTube because I put in so many overlays and educational points. So even if you get lost and we get like nerd out on some wine things, there will typically be some overlays or visuals that help explain what we're talking about. Uh and then, so that's at Wine Centric Show on YouTube. Subscribe to the channel, and then I would say come to my website, winecentricshow.com, and there's a button to join our newsletter. All the episodes are there, all about me, etc. And uh yeah.
Ryan Vet · Awesome. Well, Matt, this has been so fun. It's been fun talking uh about uh just the history and and the culture and how much wine has been a part of history and culture for literally millennia. So I I want to thank you for your expertise, your wisdom, your insight, and I want to thank all the listeners for listening to this episode of the Ryan Vet Show. Until next time, inspire forward. Thanks for tuning in to the The Ryan Vet Show. Be sure to subscribe, comment, and like this episode, plus share it with someone who needs to hear it.
