Summary
Every headline says Gen Z is the burnout generation. The research says the opposite.
Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett is an organizational psychologist, keynote speaker, and international bestselling author of I Wish I'd Quit Sooner. She has spent 25 years studying what actually happens inside toxic workplaces, and she joins Ryan Vet to make the case that burnout is a workplace condition rather than a personal failing, and that the generation getting blamed for fragility might simply have better boundaries.
The diagnostic she uses is toxic versus difficult. A difficult boss is disorganized, a poor communicator, maybe even a little weak, but does no real harm. A toxic boss does harm, overt or covert, and by her account cannot be coached out of it. She will not even use the word leader for them. Her metaphor for staying anyway is the one that sticks: a house with asbestos in the walls, and a response of a yoga mat and a fresh coat of paint. The intervention feels like progress. The problem is still in the walls.
Then she flips the burnout story. Her research finds Gen Z is more likely to leave a bad situation before it becomes a crisis, which can make them less likely to burn out under a toxic boss than the generations that stayed and absorbed it. She puts the question straight back to Ryan: does that make them weak, or does it make them have better boundaries? From there the conversation widens into what forms a toxic leader, what remote work and AI are doing to burnout in both directions, why Gen X is the barbell generation squeezed from both sides, and the six options she gives anyone reporting to one.
Key takeaways
1
Burnout is a workplace phenomenon, not a personal failing. Hambley Lovett defines it as exhaustion plus cynicism plus a loss of confidence in your own abilities, created by work conditions, which is why handing it back to the individual as a therapy problem misplaces the cause.
2
Toxic and difficult are not the same thing. A difficult boss is annoying, disorganized, a bad communicator, or weak, but does no harm. A toxic boss uses a series of harmful behaviors that can be overt or covert, and they tend to escalate.
3
A truly toxic boss will not become a good leader. She has coached hundreds of leaders and believes people can grow, but says toxic bosses are typically not open to self-insight or feedback, and that openness is the precondition for change.
4
Wellness programs layered over a toxic workplace are the yoga mat in the house with asbestos in the walls. The intervention feels like progress while the cause goes untouched.
5
Gen Z may burn out less under a toxic boss, not more, because they are more likely to leave before it escalates. Hambley Lovett reframes that exit as boundaries rather than fragility.
6
Her account of what forms a toxic leader is unresolved trauma, big T and small t, carried into a role with power over other people.
7
Gen X is the barbell generation, squeezed between two expensive cohorts at once, and she is direct that the body eventually sets the limit regardless of resilience or grit.
Terms defined
Plain-language definitions for the ideas in this episode. Structured for search and AI answers.
burnout noun · organizational psychology
A state of exhaustion combined with growing cynicism and a loss of confidence in your own abilities, caused specifically by work conditions. Distinct from stress, and distinct from exhaustion caused by circumstances outside work.
In this episode: Her correction to the common habit of using stress and burnout interchangeably.
toxic boss noun · organizational psychology
Someone in a leadership role who uses a series of harmful behaviors, overt or covert, that tend to worsen over time. In her framing they are bosses rather than leaders, because a leader brings out the best in their people.
In this episode: Half of the diagnostic she gives Ryan, and the subject of her research program at the University of Calgary.
difficult boss noun · organizational psychology
Someone who is annoying, disorganized, a bad communicator, or weak, but who does not do harm and can be worked with. The other half of the diagnostic, and the category most bad bosses actually fall into.
In this episode: Why she declines Ryan's Michael Scott comparison and asks whether he is harming people's health.
the asbestos house noun · Laura Hambley Lovett analogy
A workplace whose harm is structural, met with individual-level wellness interventions. You can bring in a yoga mat and repaint, and the carcinogens are still in the walls.
In this episode: Her answer to bandage solutions for burnout.
human beings, not humans doing phrase · Laura Hambley Lovett
Her shorthand for treating people as people rather than as output. The paired image is that a computer is a plugged-in machine while humans are rechargeable batteries that need fresh air, nature, movement, water, and other people.
In this episode: The line Ryan repeats back to her, and the turn toward what recovery actually requires.
Notable quotes
Lines worth keeping, verbatim from the episode.
A truly toxic boss will not become a good leader.
I call them bosses, not leaders, because a true leader brings out the best in their people.
Does that make them weak or does that make them have better boundaries
Human beings, not humans doing.
Humans are rechargeable batteries.
the body will speak, the body will say no more, and it'll shut down and it'll bring on disease
Chapters
Jump to any moment. Timestamps deep-link the audio.
The guest
Laura Hambley Lovett
Organizational psychologist · Founder, Canada Career Counselling
Laura Hambley Lovett is an organizational psychologist, keynote speaker, and international bestselling author with 25 years in the field. Her work sits at the intersection of workplace psychology, the future of work, and career development, and her stated aim is to build cultures that attract good people and then keep them. She holds a PhD in Industrial/Organizational Psychology from the University of Calgary, where she is an adjunct professor overseeing a program of research on toxic leadership in North America.
She has founded several psychology and consulting practices. Canada Career Counselling, which she started in 2009, puts psychologists in front of thousands of Canadians working through career and workplace problems, and works with organizations on leadership and culture. She is also a co-founder of Work EvOHlution, which focuses on remote leadership and the psychology of distributed work. In 2018 she received a Canadian Women of Inspiration Award as a Global Influencer.
Her book, I Wish I'd Quit Sooner, is an international bestseller, and she hosts the podcast Where Work Meets Life. Her most recent research is on toxic leadership and the damage it does, including an ongoing project on how toxic leadership lands differently across generations. Her position is blunt and unusual for the field: people can grow, but a truly toxic boss will not become a good leader, because the self-insight the change would require is the thing they do not have.
Frequently asked
Straight answers to the questions this essay raises. Open by default, structured for search and AI.
What's the difference between a toxic boss and a difficult boss? +
A difficult boss is disorganized, a poor communicator, or weak, but does not intend harm and can be worked with. A toxic boss uses harmful behavior, overt or covert, that gets worse over time and, by Hambley Lovett's account, cannot be coached out of them. She reserves the word leader for the first group only.
Is Gen Z actually more likely to burn out? +
Hambley Lovett's research suggests the opposite in one specific respect. Gen Z is more likely to leave a bad workplace situation before it escalates, which may make them less likely to burn out under a toxic boss specifically, because they exit before it gets that far. Her question back to Ryan is whether that reads as weakness or as better boundaries.
Can a toxic boss change? +
She says no. She has coached hundreds of leaders and believes people can grow, but toxic bosses are typically not open to self-insight or feedback, which she treats as the precondition for development. Her line in the episode is that a truly toxic boss will not become a good leader.
What are your options if you report to a toxic boss? +
She outlines six in her book I Wish I'd Quit Sooner, including raising it directly, filing a complaint, escalating it above your boss, taking a leave, and quitting. Her broader point is that the choice is a real one, and that staying and absorbing it is the option people default to and pay for.
Resources mentioned
Also mentioned
Book I Wish I'd Quit Sooner by Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett
Podcast Where Work Meets Life
Website drlaura.live → Organization Canada Career Counselling
Episode Joseph Ferris: Boopsy, Gen X, the Barbell Generation, and Embracing the Suck → Transcript
00:00 Cold open
Ryan Vet · On this episode of the Ryan Vet Show.
Laura Hambley Lovett · A truly toxic boss will not become a good leader.
Ryan Vet · Michael Scott, is he a toxic leader on the office or is he a difficult boss?
Laura Hambley Lovett · Do you think he's harming people's health? If your house has asbestos in the walls, you'll bring in a yoga mat. You know, maybe you'll put a fresh coat of paint, but you're not fixing the problem. Generation Z is more likely to leave. Hence, they're actually less likely to be burnt out. Human beings, not humans doing. Humans are rechargeable batteries. Does that make them weak or does that make them have better boundaries, Ryan? You're the generational expert. You tell me.
00:45 Welcome, Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett
Ryan Vet · The Ryan Vet Show. Welcome to another episode of the Ryan Vet Show. I'm excited to have with me today Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett. And she is an organizational psychologist and she has just so much insight, especially when it comes to this idea of burnout and some big terms we've heard a lot, like toxic masculinity. A lot of questions we get about different generations in the workforce is why are some more prone to burnout or are they? And Laura's here to tell us what's true, what's not, and give us some studies and insights as to what she's learned in her deep research. Dr. Laura, thanks for coming on the show.
Laura Hambley Lovett · It's my pleasure, Ryan. Thank you for having me.
01:21 25 years studying toxic leadership
Ryan Vet · Absolutely. I would love to just have you start by introducing yourself a little bit and sharing what got you interested in this conversation in the first place.
Laura Hambley Lovett · Sure, sure things. So I've been a workplace or organizational psychologist for the bulk of my career. So I'm 25 years in the field of psychology now, and I've seen a lot of trends. I love working on issues that are real issues for people and workplaces. And I've dedicated my career to helping people thrive at work. And that means you got to have workplaces that bring out the best in people and are healthy, psychologically healthy, well-led, great places to work, whether you're virtual or in person. And my latest area of research has been on toxic leadership and the ramifications of that, what it is and the damage that it's doing. And I've also been embarking on research on generations and the impact of toxic leadership on generations and burnout. So we have an ongoing research project on that.
02:26 Is Gen Z more prone to burnout?
Ryan Vet · I think there's so many interesting topics there. And I love this field of study in particular because it's one that is so important and it's probably one of the questions I get asked the most. So I want to dive in and ask the hard-hitting question. Is Gen Z more prone to burnout than previous generations?
Laura Hambley Lovett · I think that Gen Z in general is struggles more with the mental health side. There's been a lot of demands on Gen Z, and people say, oh, well, they're entitled or they're not as hardworking, or those sorts of statements. But what I see is a generation that has had a lot on them, a lot of social comparison, a lot of information thrown at them. Social media has been a part of their life, and then throw in a pandemic, which occurred at a time in kids' development that was a very important time for their social and life development. And anxiety is higher in the generation. And with anxiety comes other issues. And I just see more challenge in the way of mental health. And we know that burnout is sort of the end state of an issue with work demand. So burnout is a workplace phenomenon, and I would say that yes, they are vulnerable to burnout. I think any generation is vulnerable to burnout, but I would say that Generation Z is just as vulnerable.
03:56 Defining burnout
Ryan Vet · That's a really helpful perspective. How would you simply define burnout? Because I think that term is also thrown around a lot without maybe a clear, unified definition. For the sake of this conversation, how would you define that?
Laura Hambley Lovett · Ryan, that is a great question. So oftentimes you hear people say stress and burnout, right? Almost like they're the same thing. It's not true at all. And burnout is a state of exhaustion. You're utterly exhausted, you're starting to feel very cynical, like things are never gonna get better. So maybe you used to be more optimistic and now you don't believe in a positive future, and then you start to lose confidence in yourself and your abilities, and it has to do with work. So you can be burnt out at home because you're in an abusive marriage, but that's not burnout the way we define it. Burnout is to do with work. Work has created a series of conditions that has led the human being who is working to burn out. And it's a workplace issue that workplaces need to be addressing, not just putting it on the human and saying, Ryan, you're burnt out, you need to go to therapy, you need to be healthy or whatever it is. It's because of the workplace conditions that Ryan was in.
05:13 Leadership issue, or individual issue?
Ryan Vet · I think that's a really interesting perspective because it's easy to point to the person and who's struggling with burnout and facing burnout and saying, hey, it's your fault, and using terms I've heard, you're weak, you're fragile. There's a lot of terms or attributes that are thrown to Gen Z. So sometimes it's not the individual who's the problem. It could be the leadership that needs to address how they're leading. So how would you help someone to figure out where it might be a leadership issue and where it actually might be the individual who might just be more prone to burnout?
Laura Hambley Lovett · Yeah, that is an interesting question. But just to back up a second before I answer that, the way that I look at it is oftentimes we treat burnout like it's the person's issue and we bring in so bandage solutions. So we bring in a health speaker or we bring in yoga class or something. And to me, the analogy is if your house has asbestos in the walls and it's a really unhealthy house and you're constantly being exposed to carcinogens, but you'll bring in a yoga mat, you know, maybe you'll put a fresh coat of paint and you'll do these interventions, but you're not fixing the problem. And one of the, and to answer your question, one of the problems that I'm seeing more and more of, and I started to see it even more post-pandemic, and that's the issue of toxicity. So toxic workplace cultures are poisonous to individuals, and they start with leaders. You need, in order to create a toxic workplace, you have toxic leadership. And I would say that we have toxic leaders that are doing major damage out there. I wrote a book on it called I Wish I'd Quit Sooner because of all my research across North America on the issue of you know, a toxic boss. What am I dealing with? What is it? How do I navigate it and how do I escape it?
07:09 Toxic vs. difficult: the real definition
Ryan Vet · That's really fascinating. So let's define toxicity now and toxic. I know you touched on it, but we've heard the word toxic associated with even more granular phrases like toxic masculinity or something along those lines. So how would you define toxic and how does that manifest itself in the workplace?
Laura Hambley Lovett · Sure. And I do want to get back to your, it was a great question, by the way. How do you know if it's the person? So if we're talking about Gen Z, how do you know it's the person that is the issue or is it a leadership issue? And that is always the fundamental question of what are we dealing with here? Because sometimes it is the person. Sometimes the person is messing up the system or taking advantage or simply not working hard or coasting. But we see that in every generation, right? Not just Gen Z. So, but when it comes to toxicity in a leader, what is it? So I always like to say leaders are not all created equal, and they range from the greatest leaders that we've ever had all the way to the worst toxic bosses. And I call them bosses, not leaders, because a true leader brings out the best in their people. And you can't even use the word leader when it comes to a toxic boss. But a toxic boss uses a series of harmful behaviors that can be overt or covert, so they can be very silent, sneaky, manipulative behaviors. And these behaviors over time harm a person's engagement, productivity, and well-being. So harmful behaviors occurring over time, and the behaviors get worse over time. It does not get better. And I always say the best way to understand it is to differentiate a toxic from a difficult boss. And there's so many difficult bosses out there. I had a client with one today, and I help diagnose the differences, but a difficult boss is annoying, disorganized, a bad communicator, weak, but they don't do harm. They don't do intentional harm that gets worse over time, and they don't mean to cause harm. And in fact, you can learn to work with a difficult boss.
Ryan Vet · That's interesting. So I have to ask, Michael Scott, is he a toxic leader on the Office or is he a difficult boss?
Laura Hambley Lovett · What do you think, given my definition?
Ryan Vet · Given your definition, at first I was going to lean towards toxic. But when you start describing weak and just a bad communicator, I mean he might be more of just a difficult boss.
Laura Hambley Lovett · Do you think he's harming people's health? Their physical and mental health is taking a hit from him.
Ryan Vet · I mean, we do see Stanley in one of the episodes having physical heart issues as a result of Michael Scott. So maybe he does lean toxic, but that was a fun exercise I had to throw out there. I was replaying scenes of the Office in my head when you were talking about bosses, but you did distinguish the difference between a leader and a boss, saying you can't have a toxic leader, you can only have a toxic boss. And I think that's really profound and really helpful because leadership is making people better, as you said. So, how would you help a leader in their workplace recover if there is a toxic manager? Let's say they're a senior leader or they have a team and they're working alongside other managers and they see that toxic individual. Is there any hope?
10:34 Can a toxic boss ever change?
Laura Hambley Lovett · So a truly toxic boss will not become a good leader. Essentially, they should not be in a people leadership role, Ryan. With toxic bosses, we see personality disorders, real dysfunction. And the dysfunction is such that we can't coach it out of them. And I've coached hundreds of leaders in my career, and I'm an optimist. I believe people can grow, learn, and develop. But the problem with a toxic boss is they're not open to having self-insight and to getting feedback. It's always everyone else's problem. And so that's the problem. If you're not open to self-insight and to understand your weaknesses and to get feedback, there's really no hope to be developing.
Ryan Vet · So what do you say to someone that's in a toxic situation? And maybe they love the company or the vision or their clients or some aspect of the job, but they've got that toxic individual that's right above them that is governing every day of their life. What do you do? Tell them to get out, tell them to push through.
Laura Hambley Lovett · And so it's very, very difficult, first of all. And doing the research across North America, we interviewed people in a whole bunch of different industries at various levels. So you can have a vice president reporting to a toxic CEO. I've talked to them. I understand at that level what it's like versus at an individual contributor level and your boss is toxic. But the one thing for sure is it's very painful, very difficult to navigate, and it drains your energy because you're having to walk on eggshells. Toxic bosses are unpredictable. So your cortisol levels are up, your adrenaline, you're not sleeping well, you're just on edge, and your anxiety is higher. All these things are going on, and you're trying to navigate it, and it becomes more and more difficult. And you feel, how am I gonna escape from here? Because I'm financially dependent. And that's the difference between Generation Z, they're less likely to put up with that. They are less likely, and we've done research and we're continuing, we got a grant to do more research on these issues across generations because we saw in the initial data that Generation Z is more likely to leave. They're less likely to put up with it. Hence, they're actually less likely to be burnt out because of a toxic boss, because they'll leave before that happens. They'll say, I've been taught in childhood about bullying. This is bullying, this is harassment, I'm not going to be treated this way. I don't have loyalty towards this organization, especially under a toxic boss.
13:24 Why Gen Z isn't more burned out, they just leave
Ryan Vet · You said something so interesting that is counterintuitive, but it makes sense when you said it. You said that Gen Z is less likely to get burned out at work because they're going to see the signs and they're going to leave earlier, which I think is very counter the narrative that we're seeing in media and even a lot of publications saying Gen Z is prone to burnout. Why do you think we've cast this label on Gen Z that might be inaccurate?
Laura Hambley Lovett · And I think I need to differentiate in terms of what I was saying is they're more likely to leave a toxic boss and hence not be burnt out by a toxic boss, but are they more likely to be burnt out in general? I don't know the answer to that. My thesis is that they are less likely to put up with poor conditions at work. So you may say, well, they're not as resilient because they quit or they took a leave or whatever they did, but they're just not willing to put up with that. Does that make them weak or does that make them have better boundaries, Ryan? You're the generational expert. You tell me.
Ryan Vet · Yeah, I think that's an interesting conversation about boundaries because we've seen a lot, there's a big movement if you take this out of the workplace for a minute and put it into family with family estrangement and cutting people off because of toxic parenting or other situations similar to that. And now you're seeing a slight reversal where a lot of those who have cut off a family member or cut off their entire family are now saying, wait, I shouldn't have done that so quickly. And so you're starting to see this new conversation morph and evolve. And family is much different than a job, right? Family you were born into and you're stuck with by blood, regardless of how much you like them; a job, you have a little bit more freedom of being able to pick or move most of the time. So I think it's interesting when you throw it back at Gen Z. We do see across the board, and this is big generalizations, we do see them to have less resilience and less grit, and many studies have pointed towards that. And I think that goes to a formative issue as to how they were raised. And you said at the beginning of this conversation, Gen Z was raised different. They were raised tech native, social media native, and really even went to college, many of them, in a generative AI native world. They grew up in a different world than any generation before, and that's true of every generation. But you said a lot of times they get the lazy or entitled moniker assigned to them. And I wrote about that in Millennials almost a decade ago, and the same holds true. You just have to swap out Millennials from that book and put Gen Z and it's just how history repeats itself. It's about the formation of the individual. So I would love to know have you seen any patterns in what forms these individuals that are, maybe let's start with the leaders, the bosses, because they're not leaders. Is there any formative element in the bosses that are toxic that you've seen that might have happened earlier in their career or even in childhood or growing up? Have you seen any patterns there?
16:27 What creates a toxic leader
Laura Hambley Lovett · Yes. I mean, that's a big question, but I would say unresolved trauma. So we all go through trauma as human beings, and I call it there's big T trauma, which are the ones that we think of when we think of trauma, abuse, sexual abuse, these types of horrific traumas. But then there's small t traumas, which are all the difficult situations in life, the loss, the divorced parents, all these little t traumas that affect us as well. And I think that when we don't process and resolve those traumas, get the right help, talk about it, we push it under the carpet. And that's what I'd say the Boomer generation did. You just shove it under the carpet. My mom had mental health issues. It was just, it wasn't really talked about, it was shoved under the carpet. And then the next generation, my Generation X, I mean, we didn't love shoving things under the carpet as much because we saw the damage of it. But my hypothesis on that would be you gotta resolve these traumas. And if you haven't resolved the traumas, it follows you, and we call it shadows. It's like having your shadow self, and you go into a leadership role, and then you have been raised in command and control leadership, which is the Traditionalists and then the Boomers, and then people must be commanded and controlled, and tough love works, and then you get this style of leadership, and then you combine it with someone who has unresolved traumas and that morph into a personality disorder like narcissistic personality, and you get them in a leadership role, and here you go. You have a major toxic boss.
Ryan Vet · That's really profound. I like the example of shadows, reminding me of Peter Pan and the shadow, and just how it really is something that follows you. And I think we're in a day and age where there's a whole new landscape, and it's not new as in even since COVID, but even before that, we started to see remote work becoming more and more a trend and a lot of virtual work. How have you seen that impact and either increase or decrease or have no effect at all on burnout across all generations?
18:51 Remote work, flexibility, and trust
Laura Hambley Lovett · So I spent a lot of my career being a researcher and thought leader around that remote work, remote leadership, hybrid work, all these things. Before the pandemic hit, I was heavy into that for a long time. And I'm a huge believer in flexibility. When you're managing educated professionals or people that are adults and professionals, and you give them the gift of flexibility, it is a beautiful gift to help them manage and balance all that's going on in their lives. And what I'm really horrified at is the trend to bring everyone back into an office five days a week because that's the way we work and that's what work is. I'm like, work is an adjective, though, it's not a noun. Work is a thing you do. So then I flip it. It's a leadership issue. It's a leadership issue in how we lead in hybrid environments, how we hold people accountable, how we manage to performance, but that takes harder work. That's harder for leaders. It's easier if I can walk the hall and see Ryan's in his seat. Okay, good. Ryan must be working.
Ryan Vet · What do you think the future of work looks like? What do you think in an ideal world to minimize burnout, to minimize toxic leaders, toxic bosses? What does the ideal future of work look like?
20:17 Promoting leaders intentionally
Laura Hambley Lovett · The ideal future of work is one that we promote people into people leadership roles based on the capabilities and competencies and attributes in order to do that. So you look at what are the ingredients to be a good people leader? Do you have them? And that's part of the consideration of when we're doing any sort of promotion into leadership. So promote carefully and more intentionally, not based on tenure, not based on who I'm friends with, or I'm really good at impressing my higher ups. And a lot of toxic bosses are very good at that. Managing up, excellent. So then someone will say, I'm shocked that this person would be, you know, there's a complaint against this person. They're great, they're so awesome that you know they're, and it's just because they're only seeing the one side of it.
21:14 Helicopter parenting's effect on the workplace
Ryan Vet · That's really interesting. Now, if you look at the formative years of Gen Z in particular, most of their parents were helicopter parents. The pendulum kind of reversed, and you had the parents that grew up as latchkey kids become the helicopter parents because they didn't want to be absent from their kids' lives. Part of one of those attributes that we saw manifest itself in parenting styles was getting hyper-involved in the school, calling teachers, being hyper present, getting in the way of coaches where you know you couldn't have a kid run laps if they were late to practice. So all this started to change, and that followed them into college where college professors, RAs over dorms are getting calls from parents. And you've even heard stories of members of Gen Z having their parent ride along to an interview and sit outside, or even I've heard stories of them doing follow-ups on behalf of their child to the interview. That's hyper helicopter and not the norm, but it has happened and there's been plenty of articles on it. Do you think any of that helicopter parenting has influenced the way that Gen Z views the workforce and how is that manifesting itself in an organization today?
Laura Hambley Lovett · A hundred percent. I think that you learn the most from your failures and your challenges and having to have those difficult conversations. And I think that Gen Z is the ones who are coddled, because this is an average, on average, they were coddled more, and then they're less able to advocate for themselves, to manage and address conflict. And I think the parents who helicopter are doing a huge disservice to these young people. So I'm with you 100%.
23:04 Why leaders are afraid to hold Gen Z accountable
Ryan Vet · There, you brought up the word failure, and we haven't talked about that yet, but I think that's one thing that so many leaders are afraid of today, especially when dealing with Gen Z. And I know we're hyper-focused on Gen Z right now, not trying to call them out, but a lot of leaders, and I've heard this from people that I've worked with, have indicated that they are afraid to be hard on Gen Z and require basic work or basic structure because they're afraid of getting a bad review on Glassdoor or Indeed or getting slammed on social media. And you said it well. Part of forming is being able to fail and learn from that failure. And so how do you think managers that are trying to straddle this delicate world of, hey, we have a generation who's more likely to speak up? Gen X was the last generation that did that in the workplace. Now we have Gen Z who's doing it at a whole new level. They're not just speaking up about it in the office, the four walls of the office building, but they're speaking up on social media and beyond. How does a leader know when they can push that doesn't push them into toxicity, but they can still be a leader, they can still require work, but also help bring people along instead of push them away?
Laura Hambley Lovett · I think that a leader's role is to set expectations and to hold the person accountable to the expectations. And you can't be tiptoeing around your employee. You need to be able to ensure that they are creating, producing, or executing on work at the end of the day. And if they're not able to do that, then you need to let them go. They're not a fit, right? So, but then I always question when leaders say, can you come in and speak to us on how we can deal with this lazy entitled generation? I don't like that because I say, well, not all of them are like that, first of all. And second of all, let's look at your leadership. Are you truly doing the job of leadership, understanding them, getting to know them, understanding what makes them tick, holding them accountable, having constructive conversations, giving them feedback, giving them praise, but also giving them feedback on where to grow and develop. And a lot of times that's not happening enough because the person's been promoted into management without enough training, or they don't have that natural skill set to do that. So it's not one party, it's not the Gen Z, it's not the leader, it's both parties involved in this situation you're talking about, Ryan.
25:37 One-size-fits-all leadership doesn't work
Ryan Vet · You're so right. And so often I find leaders asking the question, what's wrong with kids these days? I know you and I have joked around about that question. And I think the issue is a lot of times leaders forget that they have to adapt. And part of that, in my opinion, is because you had so many leadership books and management books, which were great. And I know you and I both have books in that space, so we're not demoting books like that. But leadership and management books gave frameworks, and leaders basically started to apply the same framework to every single person, and that's just not how you lead. Every single person is unique, and you have to treat them differently and lead them differently. And I think that that's something that's been lost in recent history. What do you think about that?
Laura Hambley Lovett · 100%. Everyone has their own background, their own family upbringing, their own traumas, little t or big T or both that they've dealt with and their own motivators. Everyone has their own values. You need as a leader, you should know the core values of each team member, and you should know a bit about their history, their hobbies, their ambitions, their goals, having career conversations, critical. Not enough leaders do that. They have the annual performance review. Maybe they'll say, what are your goals in the next year? Sure, that's part of it. But what are your career goals? Where do you see yourself in the next three to five years? How can I support that? And if you're a great leader, you're okay if the person outgrows you or outgrows your organization because you know that they'll go on doing even more in the world and they'll say great things about the organization. So it's paying it forward, and that's what a great leader is.
27:20 Gen X, the barbell generation, and the body's limit
Ryan Vet · That is, it's helping them equip so that they can soar. And usually if you lead well, you're leading someone to be better than you were because you've learned from your own failures and everything else. So I think there's a lot of truth and just a lot of value to that. Now I want to talk about the older generations because we often talk about Gen Z and burnout. But the reality is you've got Gen X, which is the barbell generation right now. They've got two very opinionated, very expensive generations on either end, with Baby Boomers aging and just requiring higher costs as they move into a lot of times long-term care facilities or other things like that on one end, and you've got Millennials on the other end, also a big generation that are having college costs or are often using their parents' assistance to buy their first house or still with cars. So you've got two big generations on either end, and the reality is Gen X doesn't really talk about their emotions, Baby Boomers definitely don't, but they could be experiencing burnout and almost look down on the fact that we are human beings and we all are susceptible to different seasons where we might have different struggles. So, how would you talk to some of the older generations who say, no, I can't be burned out, or no, you just have to grin and bear it, or whatever it might be? What do you say to those individuals who brush off any sort of burnout symptoms?
Laura Hambley Lovett · It catches up with them, first of all, and I think about a lot of clients I've helped over the years that are in their 40s or in their 50s and they've reached that point of burnout, and it hits them like a ton of bricks because they've always had the resilience and the grit and they just push through things. But the fact of the matter is the body will speak, the body will say no more, and it'll shut down and it'll bring on disease and it'll show you that you don't have a say in this matter. So I do see it though. I do see the Boomer generation and Gen X, some of the Gen X, my generation, just, you know, I worked that hard, and now you must work that hard and you must push through. And to become a partner here, you need to work that hard. And then when I'm working with the younger generation, they're saying, no, I want balance, I want to be healthy, I don't want to burn myself out like I've seen the other generations do. So it's more about values and setting boundaries. And I think that the older generation has it wrong in terms of treating humans like machines. We now have AI right in there. That's our machine, right? Like just, you gotta start treating human beings like human beings, not humans doing.
30:11 Human beings, not human doings
Ryan Vet · I like that. Human beings, not humans doing.
Laura Hambley Lovett · Yeah.
Ryan Vet · Let's talk about AI for a minute, because AI, with any technological advancements, even computers or the internet, you fill in the blank, allows us to produce more work and have higher output, but we're still one human. We have not changed our own capacity other than through technology and assistance. Do you see things like AI or even the internet that have radically accelerated our ability to create output? Does that have any psychological impact on the individual doing the work or at least directing the work?
30:46 AI's psychological impact on work
Laura Hambley Lovett · I think that it's fear-invoking for some. And we see a lot of that in terms of, is it going to take over my job? Am I going to be dispensable? That sort of thing. But I also see it as a tremendous gift to have this resource to cut down the demands on our time, to open up a bit more time to actually breathe, to take a walk around the block at lunch, to not be continually working without any downtime. I see it's opening up space, Ryan. It's taking this time, it's giving this gift of time back to us. My fear is that it'll just be sucked into, okay, the extra time, we need fewer roles, we're just gonna claw that back. And we're not going to give people that gift back of a little more breathing space, because it's in the breathing space where we actually can think more clearly and where the ideas and the innovations can flow. Because when people are working constantly with no breaks, they are not as creative, not as clear thinking, and that's a real problem because we have a tricky world to navigate right now.
Ryan Vet · We do. You said something interesting about breaks. I was actually just talking to someone the other night, and they were talking about a study that had come out that showed that people that smoked were actually more productive at work. And the reason being was because they had to have more frequent breaks, and those breaks would allow them to talk to others or it allowed them to do other things. And so a combination of, and I didn't read the study in depth, but as he was kind of walking me through it, the combination of those breaks plus any effects that nicotine had allowed them to focus more when they were behind their desk and then have this almost balance in their life that we don't have, especially with Gen Z. They walk into work and they have their AirPods on, which transfer from the car to whatever they were playing or listening to. They're probably have an audiobook going with a social media feed on the side, but their work email with Slack with all the, they're always surrounded by noise that they don't have time to breathe. Do you think that contributes to burnout?
33:00 Humans are rechargeable batteries
Laura Hambley Lovett · Yes. The answer is that humans need breaks, they need micro breaks, they need changes of scenery, they need to move their bodies, have that social connection time. And if you don't have those breaks, you're not recharging the battery. Oftentimes we think humans are like laptops that you just leave plugged in, and you don't, you know, maybe you restart it every now and then, but it's a plugged-in machine. However, humans are rechargeable batteries and we need to recharge by fresh air, time in nature, stretching, walking, water, being with other people. So that's what we're lacking these days, now that you can sit at this machine and just work constantly day and night, regardless of whether you are at home or at an office, and levels of burnout and levels of stress and stuff, it doesn't matter where you're working. What it matters is how you work and how you are led, the leadership involved.
Ryan Vet · That's really good. So, how, as we kind of wind down here, I want to talk to two groups of people. First, let's talk to the leaders, leaders who have team members of any age that could be experiencing burnout. What advice do you have to help a leader lead through that situation?
34:25 Advice for leaders and individuals on burnout
Laura Hambley Lovett · Checking in. So when you start to notice people's behaviors changing, so someone who was once outgoing in meetings is no longer such. Someone is missing deadlines, but they didn't before, or someone just looks different, they look really tired. Check in. How are you doing? I wanted to check in on how things are going for you and how I can help. And just opening up the doors to that will lead to understanding is the person struggling with something in their lives? And how can you make sure that they get the help they need, that they're supported, and that they're still delivering their work product? So it's a delicate dance that you're doing as a leader. That's why you're paid more. It's not easy, it's delicate. But having those conversations, checking in, so there's not a shock if the person suddenly goes on a medical leave and you had no idea that was going to happen. It's better to know what's going on and to be there along their path.
Ryan Vet · That's really helpful. So let's turn it around then. If you are an individual, regardless of generation, regardless of age, that feels like you're experiencing burnout, A, how do you identify that you are indeed doing it, and then B, what do you do about it?
Laura Hambley Lovett · So burnout is on a continuum from healthy all the way to burnt out or ill. Burnt out, burnout is a form of being ill. When you are burnt out, you're not able to function. You're just going through the motions and you're not producing effectively, and you are getting sick typically, whether it's mental, physical, or both. You're not well. So understanding the warning signs, Ryan, when you're getting to be more reactive, more on edge, you're starting to have sleep issues, you're just feeling down about life, you're starting to feel different. Those are the warning signs that I always say, regardless of your age and stage, it's about getting and seeking the right help and resources to get yourself back to being well before it gets worse.
Ryan Vet · That's really good. How would you differentiate between depression, which sounds similar in many respects to burnout?
36:43 Burnout vs. depression
Laura Hambley Lovett · Well, depression is a different category. It's feeling a loss of hope, a lot hopeless about the future. It's feeling really down about your life, yourself, the future, and it can be one of the outcomes of being burnt out. But all people that are burnt out are not necessarily depressed. It can take on different forms burnout can. It can take on the form of chronic anxiety and an anxiety disorder, for example. And it may not involve depression. Depression and anxiety are like cousins, though. They usually go together. Once anxiety is chronic, depression may follow and join in. And some people, burnout is actually physical. It becomes in the body and it becomes a chronic illness or a gastrointestinal disease or whatever is there that is a result of the burnout, or chronic migraines. So, yeah, to me, it's all like different physical and mental symptoms of an end state of being ill.
Ryan Vet · That's helpful, that's helpful. Well, Dr. Laura, I appreciate the research that you're doing constantly. You're always looking at how the world's changing and how individuals in our world are reacting to what's going on around them. You're looking at toxicity in the workplace and what distinguishes bosses from leaders, what is causing burnout, how to overcome burnout. Is there anything I didn't ask that you want to share that I should have asked?
38:19 Final thoughts, her book, and where to find her
Laura Hambley Lovett · I don't think so. I just think this issue of toxicity, regardless of generation, if you're in a toxic workplace or you find yourself under a toxic boss, you need to get control of your career back because it's a recipe for burnout. Our research shows reporting to a toxic boss predicts burnout if it's not addressed. And the way that you address it is, there's six different options when you find yourself reporting to a toxic boss. My book gets into those, but one of them is filing a complaint, escalating it, another is quitting your job, another is taking a leave. There's different options that people have, but I want people to know that you're not alone. It's super common, it's way too common. That's why I'm dedicated to the mission of shining a light on it.
Ryan Vet · Yeah. You mentioned your book. I would love for you to share a little bit about your book and share how people can get in touch with you, find you online, bring you into their own organization, and learn about how you can be a resource to them.
Laura Hambley Lovett · That's very kind of you. So I'll hold it up for the YouTube. I Wish I'd Quit Sooner. Practical strategies for navigating and escaping a toxic boss. There's a bird cage on it with a bird flying out. People often feel they're in a cage and they're trapped when they're under a toxic boss. And it is just heartbreaking to see the damage it's doing to people's confidence and well-being. So I'm doing a lot on that, in that regard, on my own podcast and my own writing and books, and I'm starting a Thrive Collective, a community for people in toxic workplaces or people recovering from toxic workplaces. So I'm really excited to be launching that community this fall. And you can find me at drlaura.live. D-R-L-A-U-R-A dot live is my website and where you'll find my resources to help people and help organizations get better at this, get better at creating thriving workplace cultures for all generations.
Ryan Vet · That's so important and so helpful. Again, I appreciate the work you do, Dr. Laura, and thank you so much for being on the Ryan Vet Show today. And to all the listeners and to all the audience, continue inspiring forward. Until next time. Thanks for tuning in to The Ryan Vet Show.
